[00:00:02] – Samantha

Welcome back to Calder Navigation, where each episode serves as a compass guiding you through the vibrant tapestry of Calderdale. I’m Samantha McCormick, your host and Artistic Director of Curious Motion.

[00:00:15] – Samantha

I’m delighted to present Season 2 as part of our Culturedale Commission, celebrating Calderdale’s rich cultural heritage during the year of culture. In this season, we continue to champion the voices of our remarkable neighbours, celebrating their resilience, diversity, and the shared experiences that bind us together. From intimate conversations to profound revelations, each episode is an invitation to connect, reflect, and celebrate the human experience.

[00:00:46] – Samantha

Season 2 of Calder Navigation is not just a podcast. It’s a celebration of community, culture, and the enduring spirit of Calderdale. Join us as we delve into the heart and soul of our community, exploring the myriad of stories that shape our shared experience.

[00:01:05] – Samantha

We’re so excited to welcome Rachel Lappin to the Calder Navigation podcast today. With a background rooted in safeguarding, Rachel has spent many years working closely with women and children impacted by interpersonal violence and abuse. Her journey took a transformative turn when she became the manager of the Pankhurst Centre in Manchester, a role that deepened her connection to women’s history and activism.

[00:01:31] – Samantha

This experience set her on a path toward cultural and heritage work. For the past five years, Rachel has been immersed in all things Anne Lister, right here in Calderdale. Now, as the Anne Lister Programme Coordinator for Calderdale Council, she leads all the amazing programming that’s going on with the Anne Lister events here in our lovely borough, spotlighting the rich cultural fabric of the region she proudly calls home.

[00:01:59] – Samantha

Welcome, Rachel. Thank you so much for spending some time to chat with me today. It’s lovely to have you.

[00:02:16] – Rachel

Thank you. It’s really lovely to be here, Sam.

[00:02:19] – Samantha

So could we start with you giving us a little bit more info on your journey and how you-, I know you’ve had a really interesting journey, so I’m very excited to hear about it. And then how-, eventually we’ll get to how you’ve ended up in your current role.

[00:02:32] – Rachel

Yes, it’s a little bit like the waterways in Calderdale. My journey has been quite sort of long and varied, but very pretty along the way, I have to say. I mean, I guess going way back to when I was 18, which is way back for anyone who does know me, that is, as you know, quite a long way back. I started in care work and did many years of that. Went to university as a mature in years, if not in behaviour and attitude, a mature student in my late 20s, where I did criminal justice with social research, and I thoroughly enjoyed that. I’d left school before 16 because I’d had health issues, so I wasn’t able to complete my schooling, which was unfortunate because I love learning. I really enjoy learning. So actually going back to uni as a mature student was fantastic for me because I’d got some life experience behind me, and it just gave me the opportunity to really challenge myself. And I just loved it. It was tricky, but I really enjoyed it.

[00:03:31] – Rachel

And for my dissertation, I looked at same-sex domestic abuse in Cornwall because that’s where I was living. And probably, if I’m honest, I was a little bit naughty doing that because I think I thought, Oh, it’d be nice and easy because there probably really isn’t much same-sex domestic abuse in Cornwall where I lived, so it might be a bit of an easy dissertation. Of course, that was just so naive of me because domestic abuse happens all over the world in all hamlets, villages, towns, cities, you know, counties, countries. So it was really naive. Actually, it probably made it more difficult because Cornwall is quite a spread out county, so to actually do the project well, which you have to do to get a good mark, I had to do an awful lot of research. But that really triggered in me just a great fascination into and around safeguarding.

[00:04:24] – Rachel

And from there, I met another woman on the course, and she also lived in Cornwall, and she worked at a rape and sexual abuse centre. And she said, “Oh, they haven’t got a domestic abuse arm to this organisation, but I know they really want one.” And I said, “Oh, that’s interesting,” because I’d really become interested in that. I’d never had any experience of it in my own life, thankfully. But I was just fascinated, and it really did trigger something so deep inside me. I just-, it lit some sort of fire, and I thought, I just want to do more in this field. So I contacted the organisation and explained a little bit about me and about my dissertation. And the head of the centre said, “Oh, you know, come in and meet us.”

[00:05:10] – Rachel

And before I knew it, I was helping them to set up a domestic abuse helpline at the Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre in Cornwall. And again, before I knew it, I was going out and I was doing outreach work with some women, taking them to see solicitors, helping them to get injunctions and so on. And it was just amazing. I absolutely loved it. And I was doing it voluntary, but I was doing it kind of full-time hours and really, really loved it.

[00:05:38] – Rachel

Did that for a year or so and then moved up to Manchester, continued working on a domestic abuse helpline there. And yeah, I worked in safeguarding for many years in Manchester. Ultimately, I was the-, I’d been frontline for many years and then became the domestic abuse coordinator in Manchester, the domestic homicide review coordinator in Manchester. So pretty heavy work, really, really heavy. But I was just so passionate about it. I remember if I sort of went out and met new people and they were like, “Oh, what’s your job then? What’s your job?” And I said, “Oh, I work in safeguarding. My thing is like female genital mutilation and forced marriage, and I love that kind of thing.” And of course, I don’t mean I love it, obviously. But it just triggered such a passion in me, and I still have that to this day.

[00:06:30] – Rachel

Obviously, my work is different now. But from that work, I think I realised I’d done that for quite a few years, and it has got a shelf life. It’s difficult, difficult work to do. The last case that I was involved in, I’m involved in many cases at a time, of course, but the last case, they still haven’t found the victim’s body.

[00:06:51] – Samantha

Oh my gosh.

[00:06:52] – Rachel

That’s tough. I still look at the news now. We’re talking more than 10 years ago. And that is tough to sort of manage. It’s difficult for your psyche to kind of, you know, sort of manage that long term. So I saw a job come up, and it was a manager of the Pankhurst Centre in Manchester, which was where the first meeting of the suffragettes took place on the-, I’ll remember because it’s there in-, 10th of October 1903, the first meeting of the suffragettes took place. The Pankhurst Centre was half museum and sort of legacy of the suffragette movement, and kind of half drop in centre for women, maybe who were having difficulties, you know, sort of within their lives.

[00:07:38] – Rachel

It was also pretty much the first port of call for women when they came out of prison, came out of style. And I think when the board were looking for a manager of the Pankhurst Centre, they knew they needed someone to look after the museum and the suffragette legacy side of it. But I guess they also realised that they needed someone who could also help to look after the other side, where, you know, a lot of the women presented with many challenges. Their lives weren’t straightforward, and sometimes they didn’t have the tools to know how to deal with the situations that they were going through.

[00:08:11] – Rachel

And for whatever reason, they took a punt on me. I did have a great interest in, obviously, women’s history and with my background in safeguarding and violence against women and girls. I had a real passion for all things women and girls, and I didn’t think I was a historian in any sense whatsoever. But again, I just became very interested in it. Was so fortunate to get the job. And I could literally flip between being in the small room where the very first meeting of the suffragettes did take place to literally-, and one of the women from the other side of the centre like, “Rach, Rach, you’ve got to come. Someone’s just turned up at the door. She’s just come out of prison and she’s turned up here and she’s really, really unhappy.”

[00:08:53] – Rachel

And you know, maybe sort of wasn’t-, her behaviour maybe wasn’t as we would hope that it was. So you got to come and you know, calm it all down. So I’d have to tell our visitor who is looking quite startled at this point, “It’s all okay.” You know, you’d carry on looking at this lovely sort of museum and some of the exhibits we’ve got here. And I’ve just walked through to the other side of the centre and help to deal with a situation. And I guess just having the ability to be able to kind of work with different sort of people, it was probably one of my strengths. And I really loved that job. And I guess ultimately, it’s that job that enabled me to get into the work I’m in now. And I would never have thought that having done the safeguarding work I did for many years, I would end up now here in Calderdale doing what I’m doing with all things Anne Lister. So it’s an amazing kind of journey. But a journey I’m so thankful to and grateful to have been on.

[00:09:45] – Samantha

Yeah. And I’ve obviously heard you talk a little bit about your journey before, but you just saying it again, it’s still really fascinating to me. And it’s so wonderful to talk to people who haven’t had a sort of pre planned route and it’s evolved and you’re somewhere where you could never have imagined and the richness that that offers. And it’s lovely to hear other people talk about that for those of us that-, you know, life isn’t often how we think it’s going to be, and it’s just brilliant to have this, be able to share that and talk about that with you.

[00:10:17] – Rachel

Yeah, and I think probably Sam, as a child, I really wanted to be either a teacher or a banker. And I know there’s probably quite a difference between the two, but I remember my family, we used to go to church, and I used to go to church because they went to church and sort of took me to church and I sang in the choir. And they would always do the collection and they would always count the money. And I would sit at the big dining room table with my granddad and we would always count the money. And I really enjoyed that somewhere in my mind, I think that made me think that I was a banker, I could be a banker. So I think I wanted to be a banker. Also, I did struggle quite a lot with school because I mean, I’m gay, I knew from an early age, I knew that I was different. Of course, I didn’t know very much like Anne Lister, you know, she wouldn’t have had the terminology for it. I didn’t know what it was, but I knew that I was different. And I really struggled with school. I was kind of bullied because I wasn’t like most of the other kids.

[00:11:11] – Rachel

So I did really struggle with school. But somewhere, I think I’d had a couple of really good teachers who I did get on well with and who did sort of get me. And I think I somewhere maybe thought that because of my own experience that I could be a teacher. And maybe it’s because I thought I could help other people in a way that I hadn’t had such a good experience myself. But yeah, like you say, you know, maybe what I wanted to do as a kid and where I thought I’d go, if someone had said to me, even five years ago, well, no, maybe five years, I was almost on this line, but sort of seven, eight, 10 years ago, certainly 20 years ago, 30 years ago, that I’d be doing this. No, no way. I mean, I don’t do sort of organising events and you’re working with Anne Lister for a living and you know, sort of doing things in the arts and cultural heritage sector. It’s just not-, that’s never where I thought I would be. So it is fascinating. And I guess, you know, for all of us, just kind of always never expect the expected, you know, because we never know where this journey is going to go. And you know, just take a punt.

[00:12:17] – Rachel

I mean, I look back at the Pankhurst Centre job now, and I remember at the time thinking, oh, there’s no point me even going for it. They want, like, a museum curator, basically. I don’t even know what a curator is. I don’t know what a curator does. But hang on, they need that other side. They need that experience working with kind of the women who have had some difficulties. And yeah, no, I can definitely do that because that’s kind of my bread and butter. That’s what I really, really love. And I really like the suffragettes, and I’m really fascinated by them. And so no, I can definitely, definitely, I can do that. So I think I just went along and I remember doing a presentation on the suffragettes. And the more I kind of learned about it, of course, I researched-, I always research very heavily for all my interviews. And the more research I did, I just really got excited by it and actually thought, you know, what these women did all those years ago sort of-, and of course, we wouldn’t necessarily condone all of their behaviours and actions, but-, or personalities even with Emmeline Pankhurst, but actually what they did, what they achieved for us. It’s remarkable. And you know, yeah, it’s just fantastic. And I’m really pleased I did sort of do that because who knows where I’d be otherwise, but certainly not doing this, that’s for sure.

[00:13:28] – Samantha

Yeah. And what do you think would you say has kind of been the things that you’ve been most impacted by in your career or the biggest thing that you’ve learned? It’s quite a big question.

[00:13:39] – Rachel

It is. And yeah, I mean, when you’ve had a career probably as varied as mine, that’s almost difficult to pinpoint.

[00:13:46] – Samantha

Pinpoint one, yeah.

[00:13:46] – Rachel

I suppose overall, Sam, it would have to be probably, like, the power and the strength of women, and that if we as women, when we as women stick together, we can just achieve probably anything. You know, and it almost doesn’t matter the challenges that are put in front of us. Yes, of course, there’ll be challenges and they’ll be difficult to come through. But I mean, I’ve worked with women who have been just-, they have been in the most difficult situations. You know, sort of physically, they’ve been, or sexually or mentally, assaulted. That’s obviously such a difficult place for anybody to be. But their resilience, I think the resilience of these women has been-, of course, you know, we know that men can be affected by domestic abuse as well. But I think when women stick together and come together, that resilience and that strength that we can kind of share with each other and those shared experiences, I just think it’s-, that has impacted me hugely.

[00:14:46] – Rachel

And you know, there have been times in my life when, and still are, when I face enormous challenges and struggles. But I just kind of look around me at the women that I’ve known in my life, that I’ve met, and that I’m involved with now within the whole Anne Lister sort of world that I know we’re going to go on to talk about throughout this chat now. And it just never ceases to amaze me that it’s just when we stick together, when we come together, we can achieve anything, I think. And that probably has been the thing that’s had the greatest impact on me.

[00:15:21] – Samantha

Yeah, it’s a good reminder. The coming together is so important, isn’t it? It really is.

[00:15:26] – Rachel

Yeah, I think as well, especially in a time like now when things seem so divided and divisive. But actually, you know, we can’t necessarily control what happens on a macro level, but we can control what happens on that micro level really sort of close by us. And if we just kind of almost don’t get too panicked by what is happening out there sort of in the bigger, wider world, but just look at what we can control. And you know, sort of again, if we stick to those close to us and kind of remember that we have got the people close to us to support us and we can get through it. And you know, that’s what’s helped me at times, and will help me again, I’m sure. And I’ll have to remind myself of that at times in my life. But I think it’s really important, especially at a time like now when things, you know, just can seem so divided and so divisive.

[00:16:21] – Samantha

Absolutely. Yeah, there is a lot out there that could easily take us away from that connection with each other if we’re not careful. And it is good just have that reminder and yeah, check in with your fellow women around you. So let’s go on to Anne Lister. I’m just desperate to talk to you about this. What is it like to literally work with Anne Lister every day?

[00:16:45] – Rachel

Yes, Sally Wainwright, who’s filming her latest great drama at the moment in Calderdale, and I think any time we chat about-, that’s the three o’clock.

[00:16:56] – Samantha

Do you think Anne is trying to send us a sign or something?

[00:17:00] – Rachel

Yeah, she often does. She would think we were totally vulgar, so at least we got the three o’clock bird chime out of the way. So yes, Sally Wainwright. And I think any time you talk about Anne Lister here in Calderdale, of course, it would be utterly remiss to not mention the genius that is Sally Wainwright.

[00:17:16] – Samantha

Absolutely.

[00:17:16] – Rachel

Because, of course, it’s her brilliant Gentleman Jack dramatisation of Anne Lister’s life and story in 2019 and 2022 that has brought Anne Lister to the fore for so many people. But yeah, she said to me a few months ago, I think we were just talking generally about something and I was like, “Oh, it must be so interesting to work in your world. And you know, you’ve done like, At Home with the Braithwaites and Scott & Bailey and Last Tango in Halifax and all these great things, and Gentleman Jack,” and now she’s filming Riot Woman. She’s sort of like, “Yeah, I know, but you work with Anne Lister every day. That’s, like, even more cool, isn’t it, right?” And I was sort of like, Yeah, I guess it-, yeah, kind of not really thought about it like that. But yes, I guess that is pretty cool.

[00:18:00] – Rachel

And yeah, I get to work with a woman who’s been dead for nigh on 184 years every day, and it is literally every day. I mean, I only work, supposedly four days a week, but you just don’t get away from this. It’s kind of-, it’s just that sort of work that you just do even when you’re not working. And I mean, what’s it like to work with her every day? It’s remarkable, really. And mostly, I just feel like I’m in the most privileged of positions. And I always say about Anne Lister, because I know there’ll be people listening today who just roll their eyes like, Oh, Anne Lister again. I get that. And I don’t mind whether you love Anne Lister or whether you really don’t like her at all, because she can be quite a Marmite figure. I do think that. And we don’t all have to like her. We don’t all have to like her as much as some people do.

[00:18:51] – Rachel

But what I’d say about Anne Lister is that she brings in so many people to this area is quite remarkable. At the birthday festival in April of this year that I organised as part of my role, we had several hundred visitors from all over the world. We know we had at least between 5 and 600 visitors, probably more. It was hard to say because we didn’t obviously do a foot counter for everyone that came in.

[00:19:18] – Samantha

Yeah, it’s very tricky.

[00:19:18] – Rachel

Yeah, it is. But we know that we had at least 5 to 600 people. We know that visitors came from the west coast of the USA and Canada, the east coast of New Zealand and Australia, the northern tip of Norway, that bit right up in whatever that sea is up there, to the southern tip of South Africa, and at least 26 countries in between to Halifax. Not Halifax, Nova Scotia, which is what people were thinking it was when Gentleman Jack first came out, but Halifax, West Yorkshire. And I do say, whether you love Anne Lister or not, it’s remarkable that she can still bring in all those people from all over the world here to Halifax, and that can only be a good thing sort of for Halifax, and it is a remarkable thing.

[00:20:06] – Rachel

So it is-, what’s it like to work with her every day? It’s phenomenal, and I just-, I pinch myself regularly just to make sure that I am actually awake, and this isn’t some kind of mad, mad dream, because it’s just remarkable that, A, that her legacy does live on, but B, that I’ve got this job where I can do this. And yeah, it’s just-, it’s great. It’s probably, in many ways, it’s the best job in the world because it’s just great. It’s so exciting.

[00:20:36] – Samantha

That’s amazing. And obviously, Anne’s story speaks very specifically to gay women and LGBTQ community. And I wondered what your feel around what has the impact been for that community specifically as well.

[00:20:53] – Rachel

Yeah, and you’re right, Sam, I mean, it does kind of particularly impact that community. Although, that said, I think it is worth noting-, My mum, who is-, my mum is so heterosexual. There is no question. I mean, I often think sexuality is a sliding scale, and some people listening might disagree, but I think some people might agree that sexuality can be a sliding scale. My mum is definitely on the very, very heterosexual end of that, I would think. But my mum, who was, I don’t know, very early 70s then, probably, or about 70 when the first series went out, she’d ring me every week, “Rach, Rach, oh my-, have you seen what that Anne Lister’s done now. This isn’t going to end well, you know, because she’d had another fall out with the Rawsons or whatever.” And I’d be laughing like, Mum, it’s all right. I haven’t read the diaries, but I know the story. I know how it ends. It’s all right. So yes, it did. It was particularly pertinent for the LGBT, and particularly the L of that, the lesbian community.

[00:21:48] – Rachel

But there’s no question, there are an awful lot of heterosexual followers as well who are completely obsessed with it. And in fact, within the festival every April, two of my most diehard visitors are a straight couple from the south coast who come up every year. They’re amongst the first to book their tickets. And usually by the second day of the festival, one or the other of them are saying, “Rachel, what date’s next year’s festival?” And I’m literally, let me get through this week first, and then I’ll start thinking. They’re like, “I know, I know, but we want to book our accommodation for next year ready.” So it’s really, really obviously made a mark and impacted so many people, but particularly the the lesbian community. You’re right, Sam.

[00:22:32] – Rachel

And I think the reason for that is because we’ve not-, when I say we, I mean, I’m not going to talk on behalf of-, I don’t represent the whole of the lesbian community. But talking to a lot of the women that have that will say, We’ve not really had a role model before who we can sort of ally or align ourselves with. And we’ve got Anne Lister’s story, not just someone’s made it up. You know, Sally didn’t just-, she might have used a little bit of artistic licence, and who are we to say she shouldn’t. But she had the diaries there. Sally knows the diaries inside out. She’s one of-, not many people can read the code, so can actually read the diaries. She can, and she knows Anne Lister’s mind in a way that most people don’t. So she was telling us the story as it kind of happened.

[00:23:22] – Rachel

And most of the characters that we’ve had on TV before, they’ve been kind of fictional. So we’ve had this person, probably amongst the first time, that we’ve actually been able to follow the life of, and beyond Gentleman Jack, that was only two series, of course, for a very short period, maybe three or four years of her life. But we’ve got about 25 odd years’ worth of her diaries documented, and we’ve got them in the archives in Calderdale. You can actually go to the West Yorkshire Archive Service search room, and you can ring them in advance, and you can see her diaries. You can actually see her writing. And when I see that, I mean, it just makes the hairs on the back of my neck standup. She wrote this, you know, 200 odd years ago. That is her writing of what she did that day. And I think that’s why it sort of helped to really make the mark it has because it makes it very real. People can come to Halifax, they can walk in her footsteps, they can go to Shibden Hall, her home, they can walk through. And you know, I mean, I don’t necessarily believe in ghosts. I think there is something out there, I’m quite spiritual. But you can walk through Shibden and you can feel, almost feel her presence. It’s quite remarkable. It’s just a really strange thing.

[00:24:40] – Rachel

And I think for women, you know, we get visitors from all over the world, as I said earlier, Sam, and I say to people, “So where are you from?” “Oh, I’m from San Francisco. I kind of overlook Golden Gate Bridge,” and I sort of think, “Hang on a minute. Golden Gate Bridge, San Francisco, Halifax.” I love Halifax. I’m not from Calderdale. I’ve chosen to live my life here. But Golden Gate Bridge or Halifax?

[00:25:04] – Samantha

Yes.

[00:25:05] – Rachel

Okay, I love Halifax, but let me think about that one. And I’ll say that to people and they laugh and they say, “Yes, but you can’t walk in Anne Lister’s footsteps in San Francisco.” And I just think, you know, we must never take for granted that what that means to this section of the community. Gentlemen Jack has actually saved people’s lives. We hear anecdotally, women who will say, because of course it came out just before lockdown. So someone who is gay and who knows they’re gay, but is already feeling very oppressed, maybe not so much in this country, but in parts of America where maybe they’re not able to be out and other parts of the world.

[00:25:41] – Rachel

But there are places in America, even, where women aren’t able to be themselves and they can’t walk around being who they are. And they saw this TV series and they saw this woman who lived in the early 19th century, in the early 1800s. So what was that? You know, 200 odd years ago. She didn’t go along with the conventions of the time. She knew that society wouldn’t approve, but she said, I love and only love the fairer sex, and I’m going to live and love openly with women, which was really brave. And I think somehow that gave women of today a real sense of, well, if she could do it then, I can do it now. And even if they couldn’t actually still go out in their town and be who they were because they were still threatened by the same persecution or whatever else, it gave them a sense of inner pride, and they could puff their chest out a little bit and still feel more confident within themselves. And women will say that it did actually save their life, that hearing that story at that time when they were so isolated and more isolated because of COVID, did mean that they may have made a decision to continue where they might not have done before. And that is remarkable.

[00:26:54] – Rachel

You know, we’ve had-, the BBC wrote the TV programme, not Gentleman Jack, but there was a documentary, Gentleman Jack Changed My Life. They focused on, I think, four, maybe five women. Completely different backgrounds, all of them. Fascinating, fascinating stories of how this TV show impacted their life. And when I say the TV show, it’s Anne Lister who impacted their life. It’s just the TV show, of course, that brought her to their attention because they wouldn’t have known about her otherwise.

[00:27:25] – Rachel

We had a book, Janet Lee wrote The Gentleman Jack Effect: Lessons in Breaking Rules and Living Out Loud. Janet Lee, by her own admission, was a 70 something year old woman living in Santa Fe, New Mexico, happily married to her partner of 50 odd years, her wife of 50 odd years, saw Gentleman Jack, and thought she’d had some sort of mental episode because she said she went back to being like a 20 something year old, went completely cuckoo over Anne Lister, and was really worried. “What’s happened? What’s happened to me? So put out on social media, you know, what’s going on with me? Something’s sort of happened quite primevially. What’s going on?”

[00:28:08] – Rachel

And got all these other women saying, “Yeah, me too. This is bizarre.” And it had such a profound effect. And I remember I said to her, and many others said, like, you should write a book, you know, you should just write a book. And lo and behold, how many times does someone say, oh, you should write a book, and everyone laughs. And Janet did write a book, and that was it, The Gentleman Jack Effect. And she talked to, she interviewed many people around around the world on the impact of Anne Lister, the impact it had on them.

[00:28:33] – Rachel

We have Gemma Jacob wrote, Gentleman Jack Nation: This is Our Story, a documentary, which, again, was so powerful and so moving. We’ve had people writing books, we’ve had people writing documentaries, we’ve had people doing artwork. We’ve had people doing things that they never thought they would do because of this woman. And so, I think the impact is huge. And even though Gentleman Jack hasn’t aired now for two years, Sam, people still continue to come to Halifax. I’ve got the memorial weekend for Anne Lister, the anniversary of her death on the 22nd of September. We’re expecting, you know, quite a few people. We never get as many at that as we do in the festival in April.

[00:29:11] – Rachel

But we hope to get somewhere between 30 and 100 people probably visiting. We know that we’re expecting friends from America to fly in again, from around Europe, from across the UK, and people continue to come to Halifax to remember and to celebrate all things Anne Lister. And that is quite remarkable.

[00:29:31] – Samantha

It’s incredible, isn’t it?

[00:29:32] – Rachel

It is.

[00:29:33] – Samantha

Yeah. The power of bringing people together like that is really something to treasure.

[00:29:40] – Rachel

It is, yeah. And I’ll say women, I mean, it’s not just women. Lots of men come as well. Lister sisters and lister misters, as we call them.

[00:29:48] – Samantha

I love that.

[00:29:49] – Rachel

Well, that was a phrase coined by our good friend, Laura Johansson, of course who I know you did a podcast with right back in 2019, when she was-, maybe 2019, when she was cultural-,

[00:29:59] – Samantha

I think we were in almost in the depths of COVID, actually, when we recorded it.

[00:30:03] – Rachel

And she was then the Programme Manager for Cultural Destinations. And of course, I had the, oh, my word, the great fortune of taking over that role from Laura, which is kind of why I’m in this job now. Thank you, Laura, if you listen to this. I know she set all this off in motion. And you know, every day, I still think about kind of what she did to-, she was the real catalyst for all of this work that we all do now around Gentleman Jack and Anne Lister. And if it wasn’t for Laura, we wouldn’t be doing it now.

[00:30:35] – Rachel

The people that come to-, it was Lister sisters and Lister misters. Laura had coined the phrase Lister sisters and Lister misters. And in April of this year, we were talking to some of the Lister sisters who had come from, I think the particular ones, they’d come from America. And they were saying-, you know, I was saying, “Why are you here?” And they said, “We’ve got to make this pilgrimage. This just means so much to us to be with all of our fellow sisters.”

[00:31:00] – Rachel

And that trip had cost them thousands of pounds. It had cost them, obviously, the air fare to get to Halifax. It had cost them their accommodation whilst they were here. It had cost them the money for the tickets. They did every single event they could, back to back to back. They were literally doing events from 9 in the morning till 9 at night every day. And they worked out because we were interested to know, it had cost them between £6,000 and £8,000 to come over for the eight days. Obviously, they had that money to spend, which many of us wouldn’t have.

[00:31:33] – Rachel

But again, I think if I had £6,000 to £8,000 to spend on a holiday, would I be coming to Halifax to spend it with my Lister sisters, or would I be going on some kind of really lavish, you know-, and maybe because I can do my Lister sister thing anytime, because I live here, I have the great fortune and privilege of being able to go to Shibden Hall any day of the week I want. I can go and walk in Anne Lister’s footsteps anytime, and I never take that for granted. I know just how lucky I am to be able to do that. Maybe if I didn’t have that opportunity, maybe I would spend. But the visitors make huge sacrifices to make this pilgrimage. Because it really matters.

[00:32:16] – Rachel

And the community that has been born out of this whole phenomenon is quite remarkable. Friendships have been made. Women have moved counties, countries, continents to move to Calderdale to be closer to the Anne Lister story. And I can’t think of another TV show that has triggered that kind of behaviour. And Gentleman Jack has, and the whole Anne Lister movement and community, and of course, we must credit ALBW, the Anne Lister Birthday Week element of this who-, Pat Esgate from New York, who back in 2019, when Laura, very tentatively, when Gentleman Jack first came out, very very tentatively put on an event at the Minster. Just to see-, well, in fact, she initially was going to put it on at, I think it was the Book Corner, just to see if there’d be any interest. Just to see. We’ll get Helena Whitbread, the great early transcriber, the wonderful Helena Whitbread, who’s of course Calderdale borne and bred, and Jill Liddington, the fantastic feminist historian who’s also a transcriber of the Anne Lister diaries. I thought we’ll get them both in the room and have a little chat about all things Anne Lister and the diaries. And we’ll just see if there’s any interest.

[00:33:31] – Rachel

So I think Laura put the tickets out for sale, maybe 30 odd tickets for the Book Corner. They went before she could even press sort of go on the computer. So she moved it to a bigger venue for maybe 100 odd people. And again, they all sold instantly. So she moved the event to the Minster, which, of course, holds several hundred.

[00:33:53] – Rachel

I was fortunate enough to be at that event. I was doing some filming, some recording for Jill at the time. So I was there, and it was the most remarkable evening. It was just phenomenal. It was full of these new fans who had just seen Gentleman Jack for the first time and who’d learnt, therefore, about Anne Lister for the first time, coming together. It was so emotional. Laura sort of hosted it, and Helena and Jill both did their talk, and then they had a Q&A. And Pat Esgate from New York was in the audience. And from New York, she’d flown in from New York, just to-, not for that event, she didn’t know the event was on, but she’d flown in to go to Shibden Hall because she’d just seen Gentleman Jack on the TV. And so she flew in and the event was on at the Minster while she was there, so she went.

[00:34:41] – Rachel

And sitting in the Minster that evening, she decided that she had to put on an event herself for her community, for the lesbian community around the world to come to Halifax to just feel a little bit of what she’d felt that night. So that was in the July, and 2019. So she set about organising a series of events for April 2020. Of course, we all know what happened, COVID set in. But ultimately, that was ALBW, Anne Lister Birthday Weekend, initially. It became Anne Lister Birthday Week, but that was the catalyst for all of the events that we now hold around April, which has now become the Anne Lister Festival.

[00:35:20] – Rachel

And yeah, I mean, you just think how the community has grown and this whole-, it literally feels, Sam, as if it is now a movement. It’s just grow-, I was talking to someone a couple of days ago and she said it’s almost as if Lister is up there with the Brontes now in terms of what she’s achieved and kind of putting Yorkshire on the map. And yeah, it just feels such a special thing to be involved in. And I’m just so lucky to be able to do this work.

[00:35:46] – Samantha

Yeah. I mean, it’s just incredible. And it’s growing all the time, isn’t it? The momentum is not stopping.

[00:35:51] – Rachel

No.

[00:35:51] – Samantha

Gosh, where’s it going to go?

[00:35:53] – Rachel

And I’m lucky to do this work, but also I love this work. I’m so passionate. And I think you kind of have to be. It’s hard work. There’s an awful lot of work to do, you know, to organise the festival. But it’s just-, what an utter, utter privilege to be able to do it. And I just love it. When I see these Gentleman Jack, these Anne Lister fans, these Lister sisters and misters from all over the world come back several times a year if they’re local or once a year if they’re from abroad. It’s just like greeting kind of old friends. And it’s just having that sense of community. For me as a gay woman, I’m rarely in the majority. So actually, when all of the community come back together, it’s just amazing. It’s the most lovely feeling. And the one thing they all say is what a fantastically warm and welcoming place Halifax and Calderdale is. And I mean, I know that. I live here. I’ve chosen to move my life here. That’s why I live here. And I think for anyone out there listening, it just-, you know, take pride in your local area. So whether you like Anne Lister or not, it’s just the most wonderful place to be.

[00:36:57] – Rachel

And these people who do live in San Francisco or in Melbourne, Australia, or wherever else, they choose to come here because of what a special place it is. And sometimes, I guess, it’s easy to forget that and to take for granted, but it is a special place. That’s why we choose to live here or people choose to come and visit.

[00:37:12] – Samantha

It definitely is. I’ve got friends, all different sexualities and things who, like you were saying, really warmed to the Gentleman Jack story and Happy Valley as well. I do that whole thing every time they come up, so this is where this was filmed. Are you going to move here yet? Because I’m like, “Why don’t you live here? It’s just incredible.” You know, we are very lucky in many ways, aren’t we, in Calderdale? And it’s lovely that we can celebrate this so widely and we have this incredible story of somebody so amazing. And like you say, an incredible personality of everything, you know, that belongs here and is here and is still alive here in the people that are keeping things going.

[00:37:56] – Rachel

And I think one of the differences, I remember when, obviously, the last series of Happy Valley aired earlier this year, and it was just that-, oh my word, what a finale that was. I mean, it was just-, we didn’t know that Sally could better series one or two, but then-, wow, it didn’t half go out. I know she said to me kind of during the filming, like, it goes out with a real bang, and I was thinking, oh, no, Sally said a bang. I’m quite scared to watch it, actually. Yeah, it went out with a bang, all right, literally, didn’t it?

[00:38:24] – Rachel

But the thing with Happy Valley and other series, we talk about them long after, but we don’t get the people coming on the pilgrimages. And I guess that that’s because, as we said earlier, Sam, Anne Lister is a real person. Gentleman Jack was a fictional TV show. The dramatisation was based on Anne Lister, but that was the point. The TV show came and went, as Happy Valley came and went, as Last Tango in Halifax came and went. But Anne Lister lives on. And so where people used to come maybe for the Suranne element of it, they’re now coming for the Anne Lister element of it. And Anne Lister won’t ever go anywhere because she’s been gone 184 years.

[00:39:04] – Rachel

And someone said to me a while ago, “Oh, do you think she’ll get cancelled?” That new word we’re all talking about. If something’s found that she did that wasn’t very popular, she might get cancelled and we’ll have to stop talking about it. I said, “But her diaries are there. They’re there for everyone to read.” I don’t think there’ll be any surprises because we know about her life. There are bits of her life that we wouldn’t sort of do today. I mean, she lived in the early 19th century. There are things that sort of the way people lived then maybe that we wouldn’t do now. But she was of her time, and I don’t think there’ll be any surprises because she literally wrote down everything she did, thought, said, in her diaries. So it’s there for everyone to see. And the people that choose to still come over to go on the pilgrimage to celebrate her and to remember her, just know about all of that. And the people that don’t want to don’t come anyway. But I think it’s because we’re talking about a real person, that’s why the legacy lives on in a way that maybe it doesn’t for the other shows.

[00:40:08] – Rachel

But yeah, it’s a real person who’s had a real impact on many, many, many, many people who still continue to come here, sort of at least once a year, if not twice a year, and more throughout the year. And long may that continue.

[00:40:21] – Samantha

Absolutely. And just to round us off, and I don’t know how easy this is, because, again, it’s quite a big question, but I just think there is so much to learn from what has happened and what continues to evolve from Anne’s story. And I just wondered, when we think of our-, Calderdale as a whole community, but our wider society, what would your hopes be for that based on what you’ve seen this do? Because there’s a lot in there we can all relate to, regardless of whether we have lived experience in that context or whether Anne is somebody that we’re interested in or not. There’s a story there about community, I think.

[00:41:02] – Rachel

Yeah, there really is. And you know, I think of some of Calderdale’s-, what’s Calderdale about? It’s about that distinctiveness, that resilience, that sort of uniqueness. They’re all things that I think Anne Lister’s story represents. And I think one thing that probably equal to all of those, if not more, that kindness. And I think that is just-, we talked earlier about how divided society can feel at the moment, how divisive it can feel. And I just think that kindness.

[00:41:36] – Rachel

I always say with the Anne Lister community, Sam, you know, my role, it’s a big community. We’re talking hundreds and hundreds of people from all over the world, from Calderdale, from across West Yorkshire, from across the UK, and all across the world. We don’t all have the same beliefs and opinions, and we don’t all agree on everything. But what I try and do within my role is very much to straddle all of that. And yes, there can be different factions, and we don’t all have to agree on everything. But I think my role sort of straddles the whole community, and I really try to-, I feel a real responsibility to keep that going. And you know, someone will say, “Oh, I’m not really talking to that group at the moment because they’re doing or saying da, da, da, da,” and someone else will say something else. And I say, “But that’s okay because we can all have different feelings and views and beliefs, because that’s what makes us who we are.” That’s what makes society rock.

[00:42:35] – Rachel

But it’s really important to remember for this community, we’re all in it for the same reason. We’re all in it because this woman who did live 200 years ago and has been dead nearly 184 years on the 22nd of September, by the time this goes out, of course, we’ll be past that. She’s brought us all together, and she’s brought us all together for a reason. And so it’s to try and remember that whilst we are all different, to try and find that common ground amongst us. And I just think that’s why this community has been strong, is still strong, and I hope will remain strong, because yes, we’ll all have our differences, but we can still live together in harmony with those.

[00:43:15] – Rachel

And it’s the same in Calderdale. We’re all different. We all have different views and beliefs, but we all live here for a reason, and we all share that love of whatever has brought us here. And it’s that thing, again, I guess, where we probably more or less started. You know, we can’t control things on a macro level, but we can sort of control what we do very much close to home, and that’s all we can do. Just try not to think too big picture and just concentrate on those things that we can sort of affect, but just try and be kind, I suppose. You know, we are resilient and just sort of seek help when we need it, but just try and be kind to each other and just hang in there, you know, because there is a community out there. We’re lucky that we’ve now managed to find a community, but we’re all part of a community somewhere along the line, and it’s just kind of finding your tribe, really. And that’s what a lot of our Anne Lister community will say is, I have found my tribe. And it’s a really, really special, special thing for us.

[00:44:18] – Samantha

It’s so special. Oh, Rachel. Wow. Thank you so much. It is just wonderful to have this time to talk to you about it more and just delve in a little bit. And I’m excited to see where this continues going, what Anne continues to bring, and what everybody who has brought that together, continue, including you, has offered is just wonderful. And thank you for sharing it with me today. Thank you.

[00:44:43] – Rachel

No, thank you very much for your time and for everyone that’s hung in there to hear this. And no, thank you very much, Sam. Thank you.

[00:44:49] – Samantha

It’s time to wrap up another episode of Calder Navigation. And as we do, we want to express our gratitude for joining us on this journey through Calderdale’s stories. We hope these conversations have moved you and reminded you of the power of human connection.

[00:45:07] – Samantha

Calder Navigation is part of the Welland Activator project, aimed at combating loneliness in Elland and Calderdale. A massive thank you to our funders, Calderdale Council, Culturedale, and Reaching Communities from the National Lautary Community Fund, empowering us to continue our mission of fostering connexion and combating loneliness through projects like the Welland Activator. A big thank you to Untold Creative for production support, too. Remember to subscribe to Calder Navigation on your podcast app, share it with others, and please leave us a review. Keep exploring and connecting. Until next time.